Super-Slim ThinkPad Sneak Peek
Only a month or so after Apple announced its MacBook Air laptop, which it calls the world’s thinnest laptop, Lenovo is about to spring its own super-skinny machine: the ThinkPad X300. Here’s a sneak peek. My full review will appear after I have fully tested this unusual new laptop, which I expect to be of great interest to road warriors.
Like the MacBook Air, this is a rare small laptop that is built around a full 13-inch-wide screen display and a full keyboard, rather than the little screens and cramped keyboards common in subnotebooks. And, like the Air, it offers a fast, rugged solid-state drive instead of a hard disk.
But, unlike the Apple, Lenovo’s new skinny ThinkPad comes with a hefty complement of ports and features, some of the very things critics complained Apple left out. It has a built-in DVD drive, removable battery, three USB ports, and a wired Ethernet networking jack. Inside, in addition to Wi-Fi, it can be ordered with a built-in cellphone modem and even GPS. It comes with either Windows Vista or Windows XP.
Sporting the traditional ThinkPad black slab design, the X300 isn’t as skinny or sexy as the Apple, but it’s still very slender and attractive, at under an inch thick. Also, unlike the Apple, most of the ThinkPad’s configurations are a bit heavier than the 3-pound weight that traditionally denotes a subnotebook. But it still feels very light to carry around, at 3.12 pounds with the standard battery and DVD drive.
The biggest downsides to the new ThinkPad X300 are price and limited storage capacity. Unlike the Apple, which can be ordered with a higher-capacity, lower-priced hard disk, the new ThinkPad will only be available with the expensive, limited capacity solid-state drive. So it will start at between $2,500 and $2,800–up to $1,000 more than the Apple’s base price–and will be limited to a paltry 64 gigabytes of storage.
Comments
one enormous difference. it runs windows. if you look hard enough you can almost see the OS suppuration.
Posted by Ron Pettengill at February 13th, 2008 at 6:39 amWhy didn’t Apple compromise on its MacBook Air design so that it could have all the ports, DVD drive and removable battery of the new Lenovo Thin-Pad? Because Apple, I firmly believe, is about to introduce thinner and lighter models of its MacBook Pro line of high-end notebook computers. Expect a big announcement from Apple before the end of this month!
Posted by Gilbert Montgomery at February 13th, 2008 at 8:22 amLooking forward to your full review, Mr. Mossberg!
Posted by Richard Lai at February 13th, 2008 at 8:39 amActually the Macbook Air with a 64GB SSD drive is about $3100, quite a bit more than what the Thinkpad is.
According to many reviews and tests, there was little to no performance difference between the 5400RPM HD and the SSD in the Air. I guess it depends on how Lenovo implements the system but it seems they are making a mistake by not offering the option for a cheaper version with a regular hard drive. I am sure that would drive the price downwards by quite a bit.
Posted by Wei Jia at February 13th, 2008 at 9:58 am> the 3-pound weight that traditionally denotes a subnotebook
Actually, what traditionally defines a subnotebook is that it’s physically smaller than a notebook PC, which is typically around A4 in size.
The Asus Eee PC is a subnotebook. The Air isn’t.
Also, while the X300 is in effect the same weight as the MacBook Air, while having the ports, DVD etc that the Air lacks, there are even lighter machines that also have the ports, DVD etc. An example is the Toshiba Portege R500 (weight starting at 779 grams) with a 12.1 inch screen.
A 12.1 inch screen is a bit smaller but, in my experience*, it is actually better if you’re sitting in an airline seat.
If you can afford to fly first class, of course, YMMV
Posted by Jack Schofield at February 13th, 2008 at 10:08 amI agree with the comment that 64gb isn’t paltry. ESPECIALLY when you consider the availability (and cost!) of small, USB attached drives.
This looks like a winner.
Posted by Price Taylor at February 13th, 2008 at 10:12 amWide + optical = out for me Is that a touchpad I see ?
Can you remove the drive easly (like on the X3* if you don’t have the screw on) ? Can you stop battery charging ?
Posted by Adrian Belu at February 13th, 2008 at 11:00 amReaders who compare the MacBook Air to other ultra portables solely on the basis of features or specs are missing the bigger picture entirely. Would anyone with half a brain compare a BMW to a Hyundai solely on the basis of wheelbase, horsepower and cargo capacity? Of course not! And if they did, no one with haf a brain would listen to them.
That being said, the biggest downside to the ThinkPad X300 imho is the Windows operating system that it’s tied to. As Steve Jobs says, Apple is a software company that also makes beautiful hardware. Regardless of form factor, the heart and soul of every Macintosh computer is OS X—which, as far as I can see, has no serious competition at the moment and is also morphing as we speak into a unique new mobile computing platform of considerable promise.
Personally, I think it’s great when Apple’s innovative risk-taking challenges the other players to create their own ground-breaking new products instead of cranking out basically the same old stuff year after year. It’s funny how most of them never manage to come up with anything new until Apple forces them to “think different.” But even if the best they can do is to imitate Apple, the industry as a whole slowly moves forward and everybody benefits.
Posted by Alan Sanders at February 13th, 2008 at 11:28 amAlan, so you’re calling Macs the Hyundai of computers? I’m confused… One of the biggest downside of Macs is the Mac OS it is tied to. I look forward to the X300, as Thinkpads are truly the BMW of notebooks.
Posted by Andrew Wagner at February 13th, 2008 at 12:14 pmSuppuration. Good word, Ron Pettengill.
Andrew W., those who demean the Mac OS usually have little experience with it. Knowing Windows doesn’t make you an expert on computer operating systems.
Posted by Allen Murdock at February 13th, 2008 at 3:55 pmBTW, the MacBook Air will run both OS X and Windows. Simultaneously. The Lenovo is stuck with Windows or Linux.
Nonetheless, this does look like a nice machine for road warriors.
I’ve seen conflicting reports on the specifications for the X300. Does anyone know what CPU it’s running?
Posted by Allen Murdock at February 13th, 2008 at 4:06 pmAndrew,
If you think the Mac is the “Hyundai” in this comparison, there’s nothing for us to talk about. It would be like discussing color theory with someone who’s color-blind. Apple makes elegant, well-built computers that blow most of the competition away. You must be confusing Apple with Dell. And OS X can kick Vista’s ass any day of the week with one hand tied behind its back, and that’s a fact. Not to mention that Apple hardware is quite happy running Windows for those who must. The X300 may look like a BMW, but there’s a Hugo engine under the hood.
Posted by Alan Sanders at February 13th, 2008 at 5:28 pmPeople who prefer macs are usually focused on the “user experience” — the shiny colors, the 3d icons, and so on. Very few people with a deeper technical understanding — computer scientists, engineers, etc. — use apples. In fact, those who really THINK about User Experience rather than merely “rate” which GUI has the more liquid warping effects will realize that icons, desktops, trays, widgets, etc. are all entirely unnecessary — and these THINKERS will go with the operating system that allows the most customization — usually Windows XP or Linux. Apple is, will always be, the most rigid, least customizable GUI — and also BY FAR the slowest, based on response time. Maybe the “prettiest”, but I far more prefer a spartan GUI than unnecessary warp effects, and so on.
In short … very few thinkers use apple, very few people who seriously reflect on GUI stick with apple, very few innovators use apple.
Posted by Leon Li at February 13th, 2008 at 6:54 pmLeon Li is absolutely wrong and probably just trolling to annoy people.
I’ll criticize Apple when they deserve it, but the user experience of a Mac is much, much deeper than the eye candy. It’s consistency between applications. It’s not annoying the user. It’s doing the right thing instead of providing a trillion options that serve no real purpose. It’s stability and each upgrade gets faster rather than slower.
And many, many scientists use Macs these days. For some, it’s a nice version of unix that’s easy to maintain. Others like the ease of writing Cocoa front-ends with the free developer tools or that many tools come pre-installed, like Python and Perl. And others just have good taste in hardware.
The most customizable desktop system by-far is Linux and it has a tiny share of the desktop market because you have to be a computer expert to use it. (Yeah, Ubuntu doesn’t completely suck, but throw a DVD at your Mom & Dad and tell them to install it and see how far they get).
My 2 cents.
Posted by Chris Waco at February 13th, 2008 at 7:53 pmI’ve got to agree with Leon Li. As an engineer, I could really care less about which one is prettier and has the fancy visual effects. I need it to run complex simulation software (even if not to simulate, but to view/analyze the results). Most of this software runs in *nix, but *nix lacks the versatility (interoperability in a Windows world). I need it to have standard video out for presentations. I need a NIC for areas without wireless. Not to mention the fact that I customize my operating system to have as much of a Windows 95 experience as possible. Simple, straight forward, and bland. It’s the most efficient.
As far as hardware goes, nothing beats a Thinkpad. Engineers and scientists around the world depend on their incredible toughness (physically) and durability that Macs just don’t have.
I have nothing against Macs. I think they’re pretty and give them props for agressive marketing, but I’ll stick with my black brick.
Posted by Andrew Wagner at February 13th, 2008 at 10:31 pmI think this is even more of a miss than the MBA. Mostly for the reason that as a VERY high traveler … I really do not want to deal with two machines - too much work to synchronize all the data I need to work with or choose to carry with me.
And what I need is not more ports … I need STORAGE. Both hard drive options for the MBA are too small and this Lenovo is even smaller.
So I pay a premium for too little storage, a CD that I don’t use but once a month and ports that I have to port around the accessories to plug into?
Give me a break.
A loser machine. Pretty, but useless.
Lose the CD. Lose the ports. Give me a big hard drive.
Posted by Ken Biba at February 13th, 2008 at 10:33 pmIts quite sad that Leon and Andrew Wagner seem stuck in a Windows shaped hole and cant see the light.
Engineers and scientists all over the world use OSX / unix. Institutions have built xserve super computers for such tasks. OSX has some unique scientific programs that are invaluable to scientists. Watch any (over exaggeration :-)) Discovery channel program and you will see Apple hardware in the background.
Before commenting on the uses of OSX you should have a look at it.
Sure its nice to look at, but is a 16×16px 32 colour icon (win) more productive that a full colour one?
OSX apart from the dock has a bland, grey, professional look and compared to Vista well
need I say more.
Any mac has a standard video out, and they usually come with the dongles or its $30 for the correct adaptor.
If you are doing presentation in Powerpoint you should have a look at keynote.
All macs are well built, maybe not compared to a specially designed touch notebook, but they are hardly flimsy.
If you dont like the warp effect (Genie) turn it off, use the scale effect.
Comments like those above show a lack of understanding about OSX and Apple as a whole.
People seems to think Macs have a limited market for such things as graphic design or for people to keep photos on.
In reality MACS / OSX is used in every environment Windows is, it usually performs as well if not better and the cost of managing are cheeper.
Posted by Matthew Pringle at February 14th, 2008 at 2:36 amWell, I’m an engineer. I work in the nuclear industry in Canada. I use Windows. I use Mac. I use Linux.
I use the right tool for the job. I don’t limit my options because of some silly preference.
At the end of the day, if it works for you, then use it.
Posted by Brett Legree at February 14th, 2008 at 5:48 amPlease don’t forget to mention the footprint of the machine in your review. Especially if you are comparing it to the Mac Book Air.
I’m disappointed in the large footprint of the MBA. A small footprint is very desirable when using the machine on the small tables you get in aircrafts or trains.
Posted by Per Schröder at February 14th, 2008 at 5:51 amChris Waco..
Your comment of, “Yeah, Ubuntu doesn’t completely suck, but throw a DVD at your Mom & Dad and tell them to install it and see how far they get” is completely wrong in my opinion.
Ubuntu is probably the EASIEST install of an operating system out there. Other than the hard-drive partition question, the rest is auto-pilot.
Then after install, you have a suite of programs available to use. And they will never ‘expire’. Downloading and installing new programs is a snap.
I do not use Ubuntu at home or at work- but I do install it on computers which I later donate to people/organizations. It is by far the easiest OS to work with. Too bad Adobe doesn’t support it, or I would use it all the time.
Posted by Karl Krist at February 14th, 2008 at 6:22 amLooking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
Posted by Justin Andrews at February 14th, 2008 at 6:59 amI also agree with Leon Li. As the Director of Web Development for a 10,000+ employee corporation I see plenty of resumes for Apple web designers and plenty of resumes for PC or Linux based developers.
What I have found is that the OUTPUT and WORK done by PC based developers is always far superior and much more adaptable than anything their Apple counterparts have produced. Also the OUTPUT of Apple designers is far slower coming than that of their PC counterparts. In addition with the advent of Adobe CS3, I see no graphical advantage to use a mac.
I agreee that OSX makes things look “prettier” than XP, and Apple’s marketing campaign has been sure to point that out. But the platform is inherently limited. Scientifically Mac can never be as adaptable, and here is why. 5% of the world uses Apple, therefore there are far less developers coding software for Apple, therefore there are far less applications available for Apple, therefore Apple can perform far less tasks than PC.
That is, and will always be, the scientific reason why Apple, and their users, are inherently less capable than their PC counterparts.
Apple makes a great system for a beginner. Years ago I used one myself. But when I grew up I put away childish things. So as far as me and my department go, we don’t take many Apple loyalists seriously. We tend to regard them as “newbies” to the industry. Wide eyed college students who haven’t realized that to do a non-standard task you cant have a ultra-standardized machine.
From what I have seen of the industry, this is the feeling by industry leaders across the board.
So when apple says “Think Different” know that as long as you “Think Different” in the way that they tell you to, then you’ll love it. If what you are looking for is to “Think Freely” then I would stick with a PC because they allow you to do anything and everything.
Also if you are trying to “Think to get a job”, PC is also your best bet. Apple is scoffed at in IT departments across the world.
Posted by Dave Dorsett at February 14th, 2008 at 7:45 amAnyone else tired of the religious war that inevitably erupts whenever OS discussions start?
Brett Legree said it best: we’re talking about tools here - pick the tool you like, keep your choice to yourself and let the rest of us enjoy the article.
Posted by Steve Wright at February 14th, 2008 at 7:46 amI’m going to agree with Steve Wright here, the discussion is puerile and off-topic.
Being a software engineer who does a lot of traveling work, I find the most important part of my laptop to be the battery and the most important concept to the its portability. If you want a mobile desktop replacement, go buy a shuttle or a mac mini and a 13″ flatpanel screen and you can get a much more powerful/cheaper computer that is portable and only requires a minute or two to setup (something all you wired folks require for laptops anyway).
So, since batteries are one of my foci, I’m a little sad that there was no mention of their life. Having just looked up a few other reviews, I’m saddened that the X300 has only 4 hrs to Apple’s 5. At the same time, being able to swap in a fresh battery makes me a lot happier.
As far as portability is concerned, I believe that a laptop shouldn’t be something that you have to set up. I think wired ethernet, small batteries, and crappy touchpad/keyboards (requiring mouse/keyboard to be plugged in) are antithetical to the idea of portability. The X300 seems to have it right in all of these aspects (although I can’t speak for the touchpad.)
For the people complaining about the lack of an optical drive in the Air, how much do you actually want optical anything? After I install my apps, the only media I ever need is downloadable or on a thumb drive… I like the idea of having an optical drive in the X300, it’s nice… but I’d prefer to use that space for more batteries.
All in all, based on the reviews, I like the concept of this laptop. I’m glad that manufacturers are starting to produce (albeit after some prodding from Apple,) laptops that are actually portable and functional.
Posted by Brandon Tearse at February 14th, 2008 at 9:48 amCouple of comments…
Brandon: Thinkpads typically use what is called an Ultrabay.. the optical drive is removable and you can plug in several other devices… including an additional hard drive or battery. Optical drive when you want it, dual battery the rest of the time. I don’t know if this one will or not.
I also have to weigh in on the Windows side of the balance. I develop software for both Macs and Windows systems and have all three of he mentioned platforms here in the office. While I’ve been around both Macs and PC since their inception in the early 80’s I still (personally) feel I have one hand tied behind my back when I have to work on a Mac too long. That however is not a slight against the Mac. For many users it is well suited to their needs and I compliment the Mac for producing a system that is nicely consistent and well rounded. You use what suits you best… but for me the Mac just isn’t flexible enough to be considered an every day platform.
And to the individual who still thinks Windows uses 16×16 32 colour icons… heh… those went out somewhere around 1995.
Posted by Steve Brecht at February 14th, 2008 at 10:36 amI created my account on AllThingsD just for the sake of commenting on this post. I am really much looking forward to the X300, and to read the review of Mr Mossberg.
I own and use daily a Thinkpad X30, vintage 2002, of which the X300 share a lot about the overall design (black slab, three pounds, one inch thick, etc). If it was not so underpowered by today’s standard, it would simply be the perfect laptop for my needs, which is why I am so crazy about the X300.
One thing I really wish Mr Mossberg will discuss in his upcoming review of the X300 is the built quality. Sturdiness top the list of feature I am looking for in a laptop. My X30 is a tank. The hinge are made of *stainless steel*, for crying out loud. Ho, sure, the surface is scratched and the corners show some wear, but considering the kind of abuse it is going through, it should be a hunk of scrap plastic by now. I sincerely hope the X300 will be just as durable. In comparison, the MBA look pretty flimsy (I would not want to sit on one by accident!), but I should really stop by an Apple store to get a hands-on opinion on the subject.
Next, the keyboard. Thinkpad just have the best keyboards I have ever used on laptop, period. The keyboard on my X30, despite being cramped, still manage to keep a very good key pitch, and the tactile feedback is great. I do not understand why Apple laptop owner are willing to put up with the “chiclet” style keyboards; they are both ugly and completely uncomfortable to type on. I guess people get used to worst. From what I can see on pictures of the X300 seen elsewhere, the keyboard look just as good as the one on my X30, except larger. Lovely!
Another great thing about the X300 is the presence of a trackpoint (the “eraserhead”). I do not understand why most laptop manufacturers have dropped these from their design; they take practically no real estate, and they probably do not add much to the cost. I know most people never got comfortable using these, but they are superior to trackpad in so many fashion it is not even funny. Better precision, can be used with a single hand (drag-and-drop, even), do not wrongly register brushes of the palm as click, you name it. It is a must-have of any laptop I buy: no trackpoint mean no sale to me.
As I use my laptop as a tool, I do no care much about outlandish design or making a fashion statement. Which is why I never cared for Apple laptop. Except for looking good (and even that is up to debate), they do not really stand out on anything I actually care about, which is why the MBA received a big “meh” from me. Yeah, it is kind of nifty-looking, but will it survive a month in my backpack? And I would be stuck carrying some stupid adapters (which would surely get lost in no time) just to be able to connect it to a projector? Sorry, I will pass on this one. If I am to drop three grands on a laptop, it better be full-featured and last me a *long* time …
And what is it with people complaining the X300 run Windows? At least, assume your bias and complain that it does not run MacOS X. And do not blame Lenovo for that; it’s what you get for being enamored with an OS that force you to source your hardware from a single supplier (and forbid you from virtualizing it).
Posted by Etienne Goyer at February 14th, 2008 at 10:48 amDave Dorsett said it right. Apple fanboys can drink Apple’s Kool-Aid if they want and post deluded comments on the Net.
I too will admit that Apple’s products, including the MBA, always look cool. However, just like getting a new car, eventually the utility of the product is what matters, because looks and a cool GUI will eventually take a back seat to product performance.
In the real world [e.g., employment], Apple fanatics won’t be employed. They can stand in line at the unemployment office surfing the Net on their cool looking Apple notebooks while waiting their turn to collect a check.
I am in the legal industry. There are fewer than 1/100th of one percent of law offices that use MAC, if that. The reason: there are no programs for the MAC, while there are thousands for the PC.
Over the past 20 years I have seen ads for law office software. In all those ads they say at the bottom “Sorry, not MAC compatible” or “PC ONLY.” The most recent example was when we got BlackBerry Curve phones for everyone. There were some useful after-market applications we also purchased. One was an e-mail sync program that worked on our PCs, but not on a colleague’s MAC. So he had to do without the e-mail sync program our office was using.
When we have hired people out of law school, once in a great while someone says they have MAC experience only. We have always passed on hiring such applicants.
We don’t have time to teach them the ways of the PC, including how to use the Windows GUI; and in a busy litigation firm we don’t have the time to learn MAC’s GUI. [And why would we since no one in our industry uses it.]
To be sure, there are always software and hardware problems that arise. We know how to work on PCs, not MACs.
There are many reasons why I would not get an MBA. One of the most glaring flaws is that the battery is not removable. What is up with that? When the battery fails or wears out, what am I supposed to do to get a new battery, back up my notebook, erase the hard disk and send it in for a new battery.
There are blogs that say the battery can easily be replaced by store technicians, but why should the user have to do that.
Why would Apple make the MBA battery replacement such a hassle compared to what 99.9999% of other computers have, a removable battery. The fact is, most consumers are not tech savvy or mechanical, so expecting them to simply whip out the screw driver and replace a battery [that they had to order from someone online] is deal breaker for most. They will opt to get the Lenovo over the MBA.
Apple is staffed with fools who are still into control and keeping things secret or proprietary. That’s what caused their market share to decline to 5% and will keep them there.
Posted by Michael Mortimer at February 14th, 2008 at 10:50 amSmall comment to Etienne Goyer:
“single hand (drag-and-drop, even)”
You can click and drag and drop with a touch pad too with one finger
And you can scroll windows vertically and horizontally without having to hold down a scroll button 
Just had to stand up for the touchpad a little
I know the Trackpoints are quite popular with a lot of people though so it’s great that all Thinkpads carry both. I never use it myself, but even though it’s right in the middle of my keyboard I can’t remember the last time I ever hit it by accident. It can be just quietly ignored which is high praise for any piece of optional hardware.
Posted by Steve Brecht at February 14th, 2008 at 10:57 amAs with everything in this thread, it’s all personal preference.
Etienne - good post. I too created an account just today so to start commenting on articles I saw in here.
I suspect the X300 will be far better than the MBA in terms of build quality.
Two weeks ago we bought two Lenovo Y510 IdeaPads because they were so inexpensive considering the specs [250GB HD, 2GB RAM, DVD-RW DL, 15.1 TFT, web cam, etc.] for U.S. $600 after rebates.
We still use our ThinkPad T40s.
All I can say is that the two new Lenovo notebooks [that retail for $800 to $900] are excellent in terms of quality and function.
If the Y510 is any indication, I suspect the X300 will not disappoint.
In comparison, the MBA while looking cool, appears to have many flaws. It looks to me to be a delicate machine that will be easily damaged over time.
Posted by Michael Mortimer at February 14th, 2008 at 11:00 amso Mr. Mortimer, your whole argument for this being a good appears to be that it’s not a mac… I applaud your conviction but that doesn’t make the X300 better than any other generic laptop out there.
In another vein, I’m curious about the cooling on the X300s and I’ve not been able to find any mention anywhere. Previous thinkpads I’ve messed with overheat and start blowing all their fans at full power when running only a marginal load. By comparison, my TiBook tends not to run into this issue and stays quiet most of the time. I assume the MBA and the X300, being smaller computers will have more heat issues and thus more fan activity (or even potentially overheat when left on in a backpack!) At the same time, they’re both less powerful than ’standard’ laptops so it could go the other way ’round… I’d love to hear anyone’s experience on this aspect of these subnotebooks.
Posted by Brandon Tearse at February 14th, 2008 at 11:18 am@Steve Brecht: Right about the trackpad. I see why someone would prefer one over a trackpoint (it is easier to learn, for starter). I just wish more manufacturers would carry both. As I said, the trackpoint take practically no real estate, and probably do not add much to the manufacturing cost. But it’s just too bad; fortunately, Thinkpads still have them. I guess I am just nostalgic.
@Brandon Tearse: My X30, while not being silent by any mean, is pretty damn quiet. The fan only ever go out when pegging the CPU. And considering that this fan have over five years of wear and tear behind it, I think it is still doing pretty damn good acoustically. And the heat is very much manageable, even under sustained load (where it draw a mere 31W, mesured using a Kill-A-Watt). I think the heat output is really a factor of the CPU the laptop is being built around, and I do not know how well the one being used in the X300 does. Hopefully well!
Posted by Etienne Goyer at February 14th, 2008 at 11:48 amYou say “tom-AY-to”, I say “tom-AH-to”… all are entitled to their own opinions blah blah blah
Anyway…
@ Michael Mortimer - one would think if you have been in the business since 1984, you might have noticed it is a “Mac”, not a “MAC”. But anyway… call it a “MAC” if you wish.
@ Dave Dorsett - when I was in my late 20’s, I learned not to assume that just because something was a certain way a few years ago, that it is still the same today. You would, of course, know that about the IT industry as “one of the most upwardly mobile IT employees in the state”, right? G4 Powerbooks were introduced in 2001, and the last revision was 2005. Surely nothing has changed in 3 years, right? Not in IT, progress in IT is glacial.
If I were to draw the same sort of conclusion, having used an IBM ThinkPad in my late-20’s, it was a dog and was running Windows 3.1 - therefore, all ThinkPads today must suck.
(Which they do not - they are very capable machines - just as are the current Macs.)
Right tool for the job. It also occurs to me that a current Mac can run XP or Vista, either on bare metal or in a VM.
No PC-based machine - not even a ThinkPad - can legally do this today.
Doesn’t seem particularly flexible, does it.
(Flame suit on, flame on brothers. I just couldn’t let Ben Kero burn on his own!)
Posted by Brett Legree at February 14th, 2008 at 1:54 pmSo what you’re saying, Brett. Is that Windows (the software) is versitile enough to run on a Mac and has enough drivers built in that it can be installed on a Mac, but the reverse isnt true. OSX is proprietery and not complete enough to run on anything but a system where all the hardware is controlled by the manufacturer.
Whose argument are you supporting?
Posted by Dave Dorsett at February 14th, 2008 at 2:06 pmDave -
I am not supporting either side. Remember, I stated that I use everything. Windows, Mac, Linux. Right tool for the job and all that.
I made an observation concerning the current state of affairs with hardware and operating systems. As a user, I don’t really care that Apple choose not to allow their OS to run on non-Apple hardware.
I merely observed that the Apple machine is more flexible, regardless of the reasoning. Thus, it could be argued that it is more powerful, if we ignore the business politics.
Observation of fact.
By the way, the facts also show that OS X can run on non-Apple hardware (see the OS x86 project). It is just not sanctioned by Apple.
Much like Microsoft initially chose to disallow running Vista Home in virtual machine software (I think this has changed).
Either could be done physically, but the parent companies disallowed it, as is their right.
Posted by Brett Legree at February 14th, 2008 at 2:30 pmBrett, actually most Thinkpad users (and IBM/Lenovo especially) tout that little has “changed” in the last couple decades. They’re as rugged as ever, they use higher quality parts than most other companies, and they are engineered for toughness that no laptop manufacturer has ever been able to match repeatedly.
Posted by Andrew Wagner at February 14th, 2008 at 2:35 pm@ Matthew Pringle: I’m sure there are plenty of great programs for Mac in the engineering field, but there are NONE for semiconductor devices/materials science. Most run on *nix with a front-end available of Windows. Silvaco, Cadence, Mentor Graphics, Solidworks, Ansys, etc, etc. They all run on Windows. They all run on *nix. None run (at least not without trouble) on Mac.
My icons haven’t been 16×16 (32 color) since the days of what, Windows 95?
Most Mac’s may have standard video out. Those that don’t require a dongle. I don’t want to have to carry around all those accessories. I want a comprehensive laptop that can plug into any given projector in a room without worry.
Is Keynote compatible with Powerpoint? If not, it’s pretty much useless. The standard is PPT and I need to be able to send it to anyone without worry of compatibility.
Not only that, but as an engineer the 3-button trackpad available on Thinkpads has proven to be one of the most amazing laptop features I have come across. It saves me the trouble of always needed to carry around a mouse.
Posted by Andrew Wagner at February 14th, 2008 at 2:43 pmWhat happened to “ready, aim, fire”, geez, it’s “fire, fire, fire”…
everyone either forgot how to read or failed Debating 101.
@ Andrew - I do not dispute that the ThinkPad is a good machine today, and was years ago - rugged, well built etc.
I recommend them all the time. I have used them.
I have also used Mac laptops.
Right tool for the job (do you sense a theme here?)
What I did state was that if I were to base my opinion on a machine that was current 10 years ago, that my opinion might be “wow, this thing is heavy, has a short battery life, and gosh this Windows 3.1 really stinks - therefore ThinkPads in 2008 are garbage”.
I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS TO BE TRUE.
Just saying, “things change, don’t be so set in your ways”.
If this is the way that IT / IT related people in North America think today, the industry will be surpassed by other countries who are more flexible.
Posted by Brett Legree at February 14th, 2008 at 2:43 pm@ Andrew Wagner - PowerPoint is available for OS X, and has been for many years.
Office 2008 went on sale a short while ago, in fact.
Point taken about the dongle. But I often carry a few cables in my laptop bag - power adaptors, ethernet cables in case there is no wireless etc. - so what’s one more piece of hardware?
Posted by Brett Legree at February 14th, 2008 at 2:46 pmWhat I find so amusing about the Apple haters is their inability to see the direction in which the industry, in general, is moving. The computer is becoming an appliance and an appliance’s greatest strength is its ease of use and consistency of the user interface. I won’t argue that PCs are more customizable, but how many people out there really care? Nerds posting here, perhaps, but the average user just wants something that works. And this is where Apple excels.
The IT nerds can continue to bash Apple all they want, but again, who cares? Apple is one of the most successful companies in the world, sitting on over 16 billion in cash and no debt. In six months, they’ve become the number 2 smartphone manufacturer in the country. And they absolutely rule the portable media player market.
It’s pretty clear that today’s computer-buying consumer doesn’t want to spend all of his or her free time monkeying around with the machine. He wants to unpack it, plug it in, and use it. And he wants companion devices that integrate seamlessly. So, is it any surprise that Microsoft is, once again, following Apple’s by getting into the hardware business with Zune and the recent purchase of Danger? First a crap MP3 player and now I guess we can expect a weak iPhone rip-off in the near future.
Twenty years ago, the nerdy guy in his basement monkeying around with his PC was the “average” computer buyer. Today it’s someone completely different. And that person is less interested in how it all works, but rather that it just does. And that is why Apple’s sales are up and, shocker, Microsoft’s are down. Of course, Microsoft has a long way to fall, but that just means sky’s the limit for Apple.
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 14th, 2008 at 2:52 pm@Michael Mortimer: “Apple is staffed with fools who are still into control and keeping things secret or proprietary. That’s what caused their market share to decline to 5% and will keep them there.”
I think control is a good thing. It’s Apple’s greatest strength. It ensures a consistent user experience. And, as the computer becomes more of an appliance and less of a refuge for nerds, having a thoroughly integrated and well-tested system only benefits the consumer. There are plenty of studies that show lifetime cost of ownership for Apple computers is a fraction of PC cost of ownership. Consider the PC support industry. Why are so many people needed to support these machines if they’re so good? Why do businesses spend billions of dollars each year just *maintaining* their PCs? You don’t see this in the Apple world.
As for marketshare, you obviously haven’t done your homework. Sure, Windows still rules in marketshare. No argument there. But the Mac is climbing, not declining. Most analysts are projecting a 12%+ market share by 2012. And let’s not forget about portable media player marketshare and, in the past six months, smartphone marketshare. Apple is second only to RIM and they just launched the iPhone last summer. And they easily trounced Palm and Windows Mobile. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them blow past RIM in the coming months after third party apps become common place on the iPhone.
You may not like Apple, but try getting your facts straight.
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 14th, 2008 at 3:03 pmI will say this. I am just happy to be able to choose from a wide variety of high quality equipment and software.
This was not always the case.
Posted by Brett Legree at February 14th, 2008 at 3:07 pm@Etienne Goyer: I never got accustomed to the little trackpoint. I always found that it jumped all over the screen. Of course, I probably didn’t give it enough of a chance…
That said, trackpads can do some cool stuff. For example, if I want a right click on my Mac, I drop a second finger and click. Still one button. This makes much more sense from an ease of use standpoint. Users who want to keep things simple don’t have to enable this feature. Place two fingers on the trackpad and I can scroll and and down, left and right. I can tap to click. I can drag and drop. And now with the new multitouch trackpad in the Air (and soon other Macbooks), I can rotate, scale, move, etc.
Since the trackpad can sense multiple points of contact, it becomes a very powerful interface. A little trackpoint, while saving some space, offers none of these advantages. And, best of all, if you want to keep it simple, turn off these options in preferences and you have a basic trackpad with a single button. Easy.
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 14th, 2008 at 3:10 pm@Dave Dorsett: “Apple makes a great system for a beginner. Years ago I used one myself. But when I grew up I put away childish things.”
Too funny. You’re right. The Mac is a great machine for beginners. It’s also a great machine for people who don’t really care to learn much about how they computer works, people who just want to get to work, not obsess over the tech. And these are the people who are buying computers these days. Thankfully the PC still exists for the nerds who’d rather spend their weekends loaded on Jolt, dreaming about getting laid one day.
How can you call the Mac a “childish thing” when it’s based on Unix, runs Windows simultaneously, supports X11, etc., etc., etc? It seems you don’t know much about the Mac at all…
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 14th, 2008 at 3:18 pm@Michael Mortimer: “In comparison, the MBA while looking cool, appears to have many flaws. It looks to me to be a delicate machine that will be easily damaged over time.”
Evidence???
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 14th, 2008 at 3:23 pm@ Dave Dorsett “Scientifically Mac can never be as adaptable, and here is why. 5% of the world uses Apple, therefore there are far less developers coding software for Apple, therefore there are far less applications available for Apple, therefore Apple can perform far less tasks than PC. / That is, and will always be, the scientific reason why Apple, and their users, are inherently less capable than their PC counterparts.”
Remember that little bit about Apple switching to Intel processors, back in 2005/2006? Not only can I now run my operating system of choice, but I now have three options for running more widely adopted operating systems, such as Windows (virtualization through Parallels, Fusion, and dual-booting through Boot Camp).
> “Apple makes a great system for a beginner. Years ago I used one myself. But when I grew up I put away childish things. So as far as me and my department go, we don’t take many Apple loyalists seriously. We tend to regard them as “newbies” to the industry. Wide eyed college students who haven’t realized that to do a non-standard task you cant have a ultra-standardized machine.”
Childish things? Maybe they were childish “years ago,” but today Mac OS X is fully UNIX compliant. How exactly are Macs “ultra-standardized”? What “non-standard” tasks are impossible on a machine that allows you to simultaneously run Mac, *nix, and Windows applications side-by-side? Sure, Cygwin allows me run my POSIX compatible applications in Windows, but what about my OS X interface and applications? To be fair, though, I’m not in the IT industry, so maybe there is something I’m missing…
> “So when apple says “Think Different” know that as long as you “Think Different” in the way that they tell you to, then you’ll love it. If what you are looking for is to “Think Freely” then I would stick with a PC because they allow you to do anything and everything.”
Again, I’m not sure what my Mac is not allowing me to do. Seeing that it can (legally) run more operating systems than non-Macs. Unless you’re referring to the inability of OS X to be installed legally on PCs, but the hardware lock-in is what allows Apple to provide such a high-level of hardware support in their operating system (I used an out-of-the-box X60 tablet that started with almost 90 processes on initial boot, compared to XP’s default of about 20-30 processes… don’t tell me those tablet features take up 60 extra processes).
> “Also if you are trying to “Think to get a job”, PC is also your best bet. Apple is scoffed at in IT departments across the world.”
I can’t argue with you here. Again, I don’t work in IT.
Posted by Ian Ferguson at February 14th, 2008 at 5:10 pm“Who buys a laptop for aesthetics? They’re THE SAME SPECS for more money.”
Yes, you could ask that question. Just like you might have two different cars, with roughly the same specs - but one is a BMW M3, and one is a Ford Mustang GT (just two random cars for comparison).
Some people do prefer one over the other, and yes, some people might just want one of them for aesthetic reasons. Personally, I’ll take the BMW, but what do I know? I’m getting ripped off, because I could have bought the Mustang GT for a lot less.
Heck, sometimes the nicer looking car/house/whatever might even have lower specs. That same Mustang GT would blow away many cars twice the price.
But what if you think the Mustang is ugly?
(Actually, I think it looks kind of cool, but anyway…)
If logic dictated that you should only buy that which offers the greatest function for a certain amount of money, how boring and utilitarian things would be.
We’d all wear grey coloured clothing. Nope, no one in his or her right mind would *ever* buy anything because of aesthetics.
No sir.
In our free market, there is room for premium branding.
Posted by Brett Legree at February 14th, 2008 at 5:23 pmRob… no need to treat this like a courtroom. For example, on market share, in 2007 Macworld site said “According to two market research firms, Apple’s computer market share has surpassed 5 percent.”
And I have seen many a Site mention the 5% figure. So my citing that percentage is with foundation.
In any event, I did not say that Apple was declining from the 5%.
So you should get your facts straight before telling others to “try getting your facts straight.”
Posted by Michael Mortimer at February 14th, 2008 at 5:26 pmRob, I said that the MBA “appears” to have flaws, including that it looks delicate compared to other notebooks.
I read a lot of reviews and comments about the MBA before making my conclusive statement. But inasmuch as I have not used one, nor even looked at it, that is why I used the word “appears.”
Also, I opined as a consumer and business user the flaws it appeared to have, to me. To be sure, opinions vary from user to user, what is important to him or her.
What made the MBA a deal breaker for me were a number “specs” I read, including:
- Non-removable battery. See above. This is really bad IMHO. Batteries sometimes fail early, and even if it does not, what is one supposed to do when the battery does wear out, send it in for a new battery? And at what cost for a battery, including shipping to and from?
- No DVD/CD drive. We use DVDs to archive documents and we reference the DVDs frequently. Having to use an external DVD drive reminds me of the old days when using small Sony Vaio sub notebooks. Did not like it then, don’t like it now.
- SSD. Both the X300 and MBA have these. I don’t like the low capacity. I need a large drive. On my new Lenovo Y510 there is a 250GB hard disk. Of that, 20GB is used with just basic programs and Vista Premium.
IMHO the trade-off in size, solid state, speed, and power savings [both of which may not be much according to what I have read]is not worth the extra $800 to $1000 add-on for the SSD.
And on toughness, the MBA appears to be a delicate machine. It may be tough as nails, but it does not look like such to me. But I have nothing to go on since I have not seen it.
-
Posted by Michael Mortimer at February 14th, 2008 at 5:46 pmI think its clear enough, judging by the responses here (and sorry to pull an Anne Coulter):
Apple users hate computers.
What they want is, basically, to dwell in the suburban home that Apple has built them, out of idiotic physical metaphors “time machine”, “coverflow” and not to at all think about the more advanced data structures that the computer brings into presence, and which, if you thought about them, would help you reorganize your life.
No, billing us as “nerds”, they don’t want to learn about the most important invention in the last 30 years and instead chose to stick with juvenile physicalist metaphors. Apple is great for beginners, because they basically want to remain beginners.
It is almost maddening reading some of these responses. It is ALWAYS on the side of LESS THINKING, LESS KNOWLEDGE — it borders on anti-intellectualism.
Posted by Leon Li at February 15th, 2008 at 2:26 am@Michael Mortimer, it’s not about treating this like a courtroom.
What I don’t understand, frankly, is the need to bag on Apple. I mean, were it not for Apple, there’d be no GUI on the desktop. Apple made that happen. And Microsoft borrowed heavily. Who put the first 3.5″ floppy drive in a computer? The first CD-ROM? The first USB port? NEXTSTEP had visual email, voice annotations, and a fully object-oriented development environment before Windows 3.1 even existed. Microsoft Office was a Mac product before Windows 1.0. Gates tried to convince Jobs to license the MacOS before cooking up Windows. Etc. Etc. Etc.
It’s fine to not like something. It’s fine to prefer one tool over another. Yeah, the Apple fanboys are annoying, but not nearly as annoying as the PC zealots who refuse to give Apple credit for anything. Simply put, the platform they enjoy today wouldn’t even exist were it not for Apple. Apple has always been the lead innovator in the tech world. Microsoft is good for mass-production, the Walmart of operating systems, but hardly for creative thought. Oh yeah, I forgot about Bob…
The primary reason for Apple’s success, not only financially, but also in terms of driving the industry forward, is its closed architecture. Again, I can understand why some people don’t like this. Personally, I don’t care. I’ve never once found myself wishing I had a PC because it could do X and my Mac couldn’t. And there are millions and millions of other Mac users out there who feel the same way, who get work done, and who appreciate the the attention to detail and seamless integration of hardware and software. That is why we buy Macs, not because they are “childish” or whatever other insult someone wants to sling, but because they speak to our needs.
Until you actually *see* and *hold* a MacBook Air, I think it’s lame of you to call it delicate and suggest that it is poorly made. Yeah, Apple ranks so high in consumer satisfaction because their hardware is crap, right? Come on. At least check out the machine before you bag on it. As for your reasons for not buying one, fair enough. Personally, your reasons don’t resonate with me at all.
The non-removable battery thing is a bit weak, agreed. But in the many years I’ve owned a laptop, I’ve never once owned a second battery. And I think a lot of people are like this. I can’t imagine Apple just decided on a whim to make it non-removable. I’m sure they looked at how many customers buy extra batteries and evaluated the benefits of an integrated versus removable one. I’m sure integrating it helped make the Air so incredibly slim. I mean, .16″ at its thinnest point is insane.
No DVD/CD drive. Fine with me. Apple was the first to recognize the value of a CD-ROM and make it a standard feature. And Jobs recognized the value of optical storage long before that at NeXT with the first read/write optical drive in a desktop. Yes, it was slow, but while PC users were swapping their 5.25″ floppies, NeXT users were storing nearly 100MB on an erasable optical disc. Pretty darn cool.
And now Apple is the first to recognize that removable media is going away. Not today. Not next week. Not next year. But with hard drive prices plummeting and capacity going through the roof, why bother with something as slow and clunky as a CD or DVD? I’ve moved my entire audio and video collection to a Drobo in my closet. Not to mention all of my old files on CD, stock photos, etc. No more ugly CD binders full of poorly labeled discs. No more wasted wall space housing my 2,000+ audio CDs and DVDs. Now everything is stored inside something smaller than a shoebox - and I reach it all through my network.
If you need a built-in DVD drive, buy another machine. The Air is not meant to be a primary computer, but rather a secondary device, a machine to complement your primary computer. Borrow your desktop’s DVD drive to install software or transfer files. Wirelessly. Easily. I mean, that’s pretty sweet. And a very good idea. Let’s see, would I rather fumble with a DVD on a plane or just double-click an MP4 file? Hmmm, I wonder.
SSD is also the future. It just makes more sense for so many reasons. Yes, 64GB is too small for a primary computer, but hardly too small for a secondary machine designed to sync up with your desktop and pull data off a network. That’s the vision, not lugging around a big brick with all your stuff on it.
So, once again, Apple drives the industry forward. And PC zealots won’t give them an ounce of credit for anything. Lame.
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 15th, 2008 at 2:28 am“What I find so amusing about the Apple haters is their inability to see the direction in which the industry, in general, is moving. The computer is becoming an appliance and an appliance’s greatest strength is its ease of use and consistency of the user interface.”
Ummm, no — but this ais a typical commment, the basic refusal to recognize how computers have changed thinking and intellectual, managerial life, legal institutions, and a concentration on consumerism, on “giving the masses what they want”. Ummm … the effect of computers reach far beyond 14 year olds and their ipods my friend. I’ll say it again: Apple users are basically anti-intellectuals, and they hate computers. They want only to know what computers can do for them — as music players, as organizers, as personal journals — and basically have no interest in how computers can change, have already changed the way the entire world functions.
Posted by Leon Li at February 15th, 2008 at 2:31 am@Leon Li. Do you know all about medicine, or do you just pop the pill your doctor prescribes? Can you fix your own car, or do you need a mechanic to do it for you?
“Less Thinking”? Are you serious? I mean, do you honestly believe that every person out there who buys a computer wants to learn about it any more than every person who buys a car wants to learn how to fix it? What, everyone is supposed to become a computer scientist just because you think technology is cool?
That is the absolute LAMEST argument I have ever heard. If it wasn’t so pathetic, it would be funny.
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 15th, 2008 at 2:31 am@Leon Li, oh yeah, and there’s nothing inherently “intellectual” about computing. As if “intellectual” pursuits are the only ones of merit. Sheesh.
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 15th, 2008 at 2:33 am@Leon, one more thing, I have no interest in worrying about organizing my life with advanced data structures. I mean, did you honestly write that? Are you a robot???
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 15th, 2008 at 2:37 am@Leon, since you clearly value innovative software development, check out this nifty Mac app called Leap:
http://www.ironicsoftware.com
It’s a far more interesting, dynamic, and innovative way of organizing data than anything Apple or Microsoft has produced.
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 15th, 2008 at 2:41 am@ Leon Li -
I’m an Apple user (and a Windows user, and a Linux user - right tool for the job and all that).
I don’t hate computers.
I’m an intellectual.
And I am very interested in how computers can change, and have already changed the way the whole world functions.
I think you’d find a lot of Apple users who are just like me.
And I think you’d also find a lot of Windows users who are guilty of what you just described - people who don’t really like computers, are not intellectuals etc.
In fact - there are probably more Windows users (in total) who are “anti-intellectual computer haters” than Apple users in the same vein.
Well, there must be, since there are admittedly many more Windows users out there…
Posted by Brett Legree at February 15th, 2008 at 2:49 am@Rob
There’s one huge point you’re missing. Business generally doesn’t like Macs because:
a) They’re non-standard in terms of the applications they use
b) Using Apple permanently ties you to one hardware distributor which, as any business will tell you, is not a clever idea.
It is no coincidence that the people posting here who actually hold positions of responsibility in business use Windows machines usually with XP as the OS (not Vista - MS needs to do a lot more convincing with this one). XP SP2 (with SP3 coming) is an excellent OS that does the job. Frankly, we don’t care about the bells and whistles OSX offers because they’re just not relevant to business.
In addition, I believe the OSX version of Office doesn’t support MS Access which makes it an unattractive propspect for medium sized businesses if this is the case.
As for the personal market, I’m afraid a lot of your posts are rather ill informed or meaningless. You may wish to take off your green tinted spectacles before you start labelling the 90%+ of the world’s population who use PCs as nerds on the basis that we’re not actually the ones fixated with a particular manufacturer.
Posted by Mark Anderson at February 15th, 2008 at 5:49 am@ Mark Anderson
My company has tied itself to HP for the past 10+ years, through the same distributor. We have thousands of employees, and IT doesn’t switch to Dell or whoever because they can save $50 a machine.
I expect that many large companies do the same thing. And if we wanted to do so, we could switch distributors. So I’m not sure that this one holds any water.
I hold a position of responsibility in business. I don’t care about the bells and whistles of any OS. I just care about getting the job done. Sometimes, OS X does that job better than XP. Sometimes Linux does. And sometimes, XP is the best.
If one of my employees works best on a Mac, he gets a Mac. If he needs to use MS Access, I can spend a few hundred dollars to drop a PC next to his Mac on his desk.
I don’t see what the big deal is. They are tools, not religious or political affiliations.
Perhaps one could say, business generally doesn’t like Macs because business - in spite of what they say - generally doesn’t embrace change.
And businesses that are unwilling to embrace change get left behind.
Posted by Brett Legree at February 15th, 2008 at 6:25 am@ Brett
“I expect that many large companies do the same thing. And if we wanted to do so, we could switch distributors. So I’m not sure that this one holds any water.”
You could switch to Dell or Lenovo or Acer or any number of other providers. If you have Apple’s hardware running OSX you can switch to…err… Apple.
That’s why it’s not a practical solution for most large businesses.
I take your point about using the best tool but when you’re talking large businesses with significant standardisation who need to talk to key customers and suppliers the solution is almost always going to be MS based. I’m not arguing the rights and wrongs of it, I’m just stating that because of MS’s mass market penetration that’s always going to be the preferred solution.
“If one of my employees works best on a Mac, he gets a Mac. If he needs to use MS Access, I can spend a few hundred dollars to drop a PC next to his Mac on his desk.”
Not economically practical in a large organisation with standard builds.
“I don’t see what the big deal is. They are tools, not religious or political affiliations.”
I agree. I like Macs, I just don’t think they’re practical for large scale business.
“And businesses that are unwilling to embrace change get left behind.”
It’s nothing to do with that. No large business will commit itself to only one suplier for life - yes, we’ll sign long term purchasing or leasing agreements but we always have the option of review. A monopoly doesn’t allow you to do that.
Posted by Mark Anderson at February 15th, 2008 at 9:06 am@Mark, the majority of the business world uses PCs because they are locked in, simple as that. And IT departments are the *last* ones to embrace change usually. Microsoft has done a wonderful job of convincing business that it can’t get anything done without them, and businesses continue to buy Microsoft. It’s like the old days when “no one got fired for buying IBM.” No different.
This argument that one can’t get real work done on a Mac is so laughably ignorant. There is no MS Access, true, but not every business needs Access. I see a lot of people complaining about Apple “locking” them in to the hardware. Every Mac runs Windows today. How is that being locked in? Yes, if all you care about is finding the cheapest generic PC you can, the Mac is not for you, but price out an iMac and a comparably equipped PC. There’s not much difference.
And what about Microsoft’s lock-in? Sure, you can buy any bottom of the barrel hardware, but you’re still locked in to Windows and Office. So, it’s not okay for Apple to provide a seamlessly integrated hardware/software platform, but it is okay for Microsoft to lock you in to their proprietary file formats? At least Apple works to be interoperable. I mean, the OS has system level file translators for Office documents for goodness sakes. Macs read and write Windows discs. One click turns on file sharing that supports both Mac and Windows clients. And Xserve features all sorts of platform agnostic tools for sharing files, setting up encrypted chats, sharing calendars, email, etc. Microsoft does *nothing* to integrate with anyone else. Talk about lock-in.
Finally, have you ever looked at Xserve? For $3000 you get sweet server hardware with unlimited client access for file server, group calendaring, email server, chat, wiki, etc., etc., etc. And how much does Microsoft charge per head for their server software?
And yes, Brett, you are fixated with one manufacturer: MICROSOFT!!! You can argue all day that Windows gives you the option to buy a wide range of hardware. Fine. But, in the end, you’re locked in to one manufacturer, so it’s really no different.
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 15th, 2008 at 10:49 amSorry Brett, I meant Mark in that last post.
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 15th, 2008 at 10:50 am@Mark: “It’s nothing to do with that. No large business will commit itself to only one suplier for life - yes, we’ll sign long term purchasing or leasing agreements but we always have the option of review. A monopoly doesn’t allow you to do that.”
Um, you’re committed to Microsoft, right? For life. Talk about monopoly. Sorry, your argument just doesn’t hold water.
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 15th, 2008 at 10:54 am@Rob
I’m not sure why you are such a rabid apologist for Apple. The point I’m making is that MS will continue to dominate the business market because:
a) It has massive mass market penetration
b) The OS isn’t tied to a particular hardware manufacturer.
This has nothing to do with my own personal preferences for computers or OSs, it’s just a commercial reality.
Anyway…
“the majority of the business world uses PCs because they are locked in, simple as that. And IT departments are the *last* ones to embrace change usually.”
Yes. As mentioned that’s the reality of the situation. Like I said, I’m not justifying the rights or wrongs of it.
“Microsoft has done a wonderful job of convincing business that it can’t get anything done without them, and businesses continue to buy Microsoft. It’s like the old days when “no one got fired for buying IBM.” No different.”
Yes, I agree.
“This argument that one can’t get real work done on a Mac is so laughably ignorant.”
But since I didn’t actually make that argument I don’t see what your point is.
“There is no MS Access, true, but not every business needs Access.”
But a lot of businesses do. Since OSX cannot support the application it’s a non starter for them.
“I see a lot of people complaining about Apple “locking” them in to the hardware. Every Mac runs Windows today. How is that being locked in?”
It’s not - you could certainly buy Apple hardware and run Windows on it and some businesses do. However, unless you have the right software licensing package it’s probably not going to be economic to do so.
“Yes, if all you care about is finding the cheapest generic PC you can, the Mac is not for you, but price out an iMac and a comparably equipped PC. There’s not much difference.”
Not disputing that. The cost is in buying the additional OS.
“And what about Microsoft’s lock-in? Sure, you can buy any bottom of the barrel hardware, but you’re still locked in to Windows and Office.”
Rob, most businesses don’t buy bottom of the barrel hardware. It’s a complete myth that most companies will buy the cheapest units they can. For example, we buy good spec HP units which have a comprehensive servicing agreement because when they’re used for a multi million pound business you want to be sure they’re going to work, which they do.
“So, it’s not okay for Apple to provide a seamlessly integrated hardware/software platform, but it is okay for Microsoft to lock you in to their proprietary file formats?”
Like I said I’m not arguing the rights and wrongs of this, I’m just stating the facts.
“At least Apple works to be interoperable. I mean, the OS has system level file translators for Office documents for goodness sakes.”
And if your PCs run Office anyway you don’t need these.
“Macs read and write Windows discs. One click turns on file sharing that supports both Mac and Windows clients. And Xserve features all sorts of platform agnostic tools for sharing files, setting up encrypted chats, sharing calendars, email, etc. Microsoft does *nothing* to integrate with anyone else. Talk about lock-in.”
Rob, this is because, as market leader, MS doesn’t have to.
“Finally, have you ever looked at Xserve? For $3000 you get sweet server hardware with unlimited client access for file server, group calendaring, email server, chat, wiki, etc., etc., etc. And how much does Microsoft charge per head for their server software?”
It depends on the needs of the particular corporation, the contractual obligations, support framework and leasing options. Quoting a flat price of $3,000 for a server without taking this into account is a bit silly.
“And yes, Brett, you are fixated with one manufacturer: MICROSOFT!!!”
It’s Mark, and, no, Rob, I’m not. I use PCs and Macs and appreciate both. Macs are easier to use for day to day personal stuff, PCs are better games machines and dominate business because of market penetration. That’s just reality. I’m sorry if that conflicts with your own views.
“You can argue all day that Windows gives you the option to buy a wide range of hardware.”
Which it does.
“Fine. But, in the end, you’re locked in to one manufacturer, so it’s really no different.”
Well we could argue that Linux is also available if you like but since I’m not arguing that point let’s not.
“Um, you’re committed to Microsoft, right? For life. Talk about monopoly. Sorry, your argument just doesn’t hold water.”
Not sure why the extra post was needed when you had already made that point. The difference is this though:
If Apple were to make OSX available on non-Apple hardware then it would be a much more attractive proposition. However, they don’t. It’s by far the lesser of two evils to only have to tie yourself to one supplier for software (which, with Linux, you actually don’t have to) and have choice of hardware than to be tied to both.
That’s just the reality of business.
Posted by Mark Anderson at February 15th, 2008 at 11:31 am@ Mark Anderson
You are correct when you say if you have Apple’s hardware running OS X you can only switch to Apple.
And you also said that no large business will commit itself to only one supplier for life.
Note that I did not advocate that. I only said “best tool for the job”. I did not say “must switch to Apple only”.
No, we use the best tool for the job. Likely, most people use Windows-based PC’s. Some also do better work on a Mac, or a Linux based workstation.
It is therefore the economically smart thing to give them the tool that allows them to do their job best, and then if they need to use something like Access or Outlook, give them a cheap Windows box.
That is really all that I meant.
Side note - “no large business will commit itself to only one supplier for life” - umm, isn’t this what most businesses have already done, by running Windows and other Microsoft products? Just a thought…
Posted by Brett Legree at February 15th, 2008 at 11:46 am@ Rob Wyatt - no problemo, this is a sort of fun and heated debate, so it is easy to get lost in the comments…
Posted by Brett Legree at February 15th, 2008 at 11:47 am@ Mark Anderson
Oh, and before anyone says “but Microsoft is what the world uses” - yes, that is correct.
Still, my car (a Volkswagen) runs on gasoline. Not VW gasoline. But gasoline, that can be purchased anywhere from a variety of vendors.
So, perhaps if the file formats were open, if standards were truly open, maybe we all wouldn’t have to run a certain platform and certain software.
As it is, I accept reality, and get my work done. But - I still use Windows, Mac, and Linux… all work well for me, for different things.
Posted by Brett Legree at February 15th, 2008 at 12:15 pm@Mark, “It depends on the needs of the particular corporation, the contractual obligations, support framework and leasing options. Quoting a flat price of $3,000 for a server without taking this into account is a bit silly.”
Good dodge. My point was simply that you can buy an Xserve with an unlimited client license for *all* of the software on it, including file server, groupware, chat server, etc., etc., etc. for around $3000. What does an unlimited Windows server license cost? How much to have unlimited filesharing clients? Unlimited Exchange clients?
My issue in a debate like this isn’t one’s preference where machines are concerned. It’s the utterly dismissive attitude that comes from the PC side, this idea that the Mac is a toy, one can’t get “real work” done it, no one supports it, there’s no software, files aren’t interoperable, etc. 95% of that is total bunk. I’m not saying that’s how you feel personally, but that attitude is very evident here in *many* posts.
Yeah, Mac people can be annoying (including, sometimes, yours truly), but we tend to take issue with how the PC works, the UI, hardware and software incompatibility, etc. I’ve never suggested that Windows was a toy and that one cannot do real work on it. Yet this is precisely the crap that PC zealots love to say about the Mac. And it’s simply not true. And anything that doesn’t fit into the boring old metaphors is dismissed.
Witness the attitude towards Time Machine by many PC users. It’s by far the most intuitive and innovative backup software on any platform, yet some dismiss it because of its trippy animation and time traveling metaphor. Is computing really supposed to be so boring that we’re stuck with file trees and list views and backup catalogs forever? I hope not! And how much do you want to bet that the next version of Windows will include something similar to Time Machine? Or Coverflow. It’s pretty darn cool to be able to flip through a folder of documents and have the OS render a preview (QuickLook) of each document’s content as you go. Sure beats scratching your head wondering which is the right file in a list view…
I choose not to use Windows because I don’t need to. In my business, Macs work great for me. There’s nothing I need to do on a computer that a Mac cannot do. I don’t care one bit about gaming. After sitting in front of a computer all day, the last thing I want to do is sit in front of it all night playing games. But that’s just me.
As for Apple’s hardware/software integration, I definitely appreciate your point. However, I think you miss the other side of the argument. Apple’s control over hardware is what ensures such a seamless experience for the user. It’s Apple’s greatest strength. Holding on to this choice in hardware argument to justify Windows seems silly to me. Maybe back in the day when Macs cost twice as much, but that’s no longer the case. They are very cost competitive.
Apple will never let OS X run on your garden variety PC for obvious reasons. Do you think they want to deal with the driver conflicts and rampant device incompatibility that has plagued the PC world since the beginning? Sure, it’s gotten better, but true plug-and-play is still pretty much a pipe dream on the PC side and probably always will be so long as there are so many different hardware manufacturers. For the industry to blossom and mature, we needed the Microsoft approach. Were it not for Microsoft, there wouldn’t be such a thriving computer industry. They made it cheap and ubiquitous.
Yet, were it not for Apple, we wouldn’t have the vision. I don’t care how much one prefers Windows, there’s no argument that the vision comes from Jobs. Just look at what he did at NeXT while Apple languished through the 90s. NeXT may not have been commercially successful, but it was one of the most innovative companies in the history of the industry. And, I firmly believe that, as we move away from the PC to a variety of information appliances, we’ll see more hardware/software integration, not less. Even Microsoft has jumped on the bandwagon with Zune. A phone can’t be far off either. There’s a great benefit to controlling everything. It’s the only way to ensure that everything “just works.”
Posted by Rob Wyatt at February 15th, 2008 at 3:23 pmI’m really getting a hoot out of the excitement over a notebook that can be pulled from an interoffice envelope. In 1988 NEC introduced the UltraLite notebook. At the press conference, the product manager did the same trick. That was 20 years ago. Apple and Lenovo seem pretty slow to follow.
Posted by John Samuels at February 16th, 2008 at 6:46 amThe UltraLite was pretty small, but…
It had no hard drive, and an 8086 processor!
So, not too useful.
Posted by Brett Legree at February 16th, 2008 at 7:09 am@Rob
“Good dodge.”
Rob, it’s not a dodge. You can actually buy decent servers with cheaper support than $3,000 but so what?. The individual unit cost is irrelevant because large companies have multiple servers which are purchased or leased through contracts with defined support agreements. Stating that you can get a single supported Apple server for $3,000 is nice but what relevance does it have to large businesses?
I understand your point about the Mac and I agree it has a lot of uses as a personal PC, a platform for small business, etc, but when you get up to medium to large businesses where conformity is king they will always be at a disadvantage because of MS’s market penetration and because Apple will not release OSX to third parties.
“Witness the attitude towards Time Machine by many PC users. It’s by far the most intuitive and innovative backup software on any platform, yet some dismiss it because of its trippy animation and time traveling metaphor.”
I like Time Machine, especially since Time Capsule was announced, as long as the backups are remote.
“As for Apple’s hardware/software integration, I definitely appreciate your point. However, I think you miss the other side of the argument. Apple’s control over hardware is what ensures such a seamless experience for the user. It’s Apple’s greatest strength.”
And also their greatest commercial weakness.
“Holding on to this choice in hardware argument to justify Windows seems silly to me. Maybe back in the day when Macs cost twice as much, but that’s no longer the case. They are very cost competitive.”
It’s not the cost that’s the problem. It’s being tied to one supplier. Yes, I appreciate that it gives MS a virtual OS monopoly but, as pointed out, it’s the lesser of two evils.
“Apple will never let OS X run on your garden variety PC for obvious reasons. Do you think they want to deal with the driver conflicts and rampant device incompatibility that has plagued the PC world since the beginning?”
No. But that’s why they’ll never be a serious large scale business provider.
“Sure, it’s gotten better, but true plug-and-play is still pretty much a pipe dream on the PC side and probably always will be so long as there are so many different hardware manufacturers.”
Disagree here. XP was pretty much seamless. Now Vista…. ugh.
“I don’t care how much one prefers Windows, there’s no argument that the vision comes from Jobs.”
Undoubtedly. In saying that the real vision in PC terms just now comes from the founders of Google.
“Even Microsoft has jumped on the bandwagon with Zune. A phone can’t be far off either.”
And don’t forget the Xbox and Xbox 360, plus MS’s attempted acquisition of Yahoo. Times are changing at Redmond.
“There’s a great benefit to controlling everything. It’s the only way to ensure that everything “just works.””
Or “just works the way we say it will”.
It’s a diverse world. Not everyone wants that.
Posted by Mark Anderson at February 16th, 2008 at 8:16 amLot’s of good and thoughtful comments among the usual bashing comments. No wonder I can’t decide.
I am often just a poor old user and to be honest I have to use Macs and Windows systems because the world is a mix. But I am very tempted to switch to Apple hardware and software with Windows on the same hardware so I can start to save some money on hardware and software.
The MBA is not designed for me, I need more power for video editing in the field. But I love the design and I’m hoping for lighter weight, higher power, large memory, large storage MBPs. The next laptop for my wife will be the MBA. It’s a perfect fit.
The new ThinkPad looks great, but the SSD is too small and the benefit is not clear other than mechanical reliability. I’ve been very happy with all the IBM ThinkPads I’ve used in the past including the oft maligned version with the expanding keyboard. They just work.
But I am now heavily engaged in the security market designing products to thwart cyberattacks. Consequently, I will never buy another ThinkPad now that they are made in China. This is not a prejudicial comment about China’s capabilities. In fact it is those very capabilities that force me to shun Chinese-manufactured computers. The Chinese have shown a propensity for cyberattacks on our infrastructure and undoubtedly plan to use these well honed capabilities (coupled with millions of Lenovo ThinkPads, which could bear hidden microcode), when it furthers some cause. I don’t plan to help them or anyone else by inadvertently spreading such capabilities.
Posted by Steve Markman at February 16th, 2008 at 3:08 pm@ Steve Markman, Thinkpads are still manufactured in the same plants as they were when IBM owned them. Nothing has changed in that regard. And beyond that, Lenovo is actually planning on transfering assembly out of china and into Tawain. Regardless, they make a great product and the thought of China implementing some magic microcode is a ridiculous notion, especially for someone who apparently works in the security market.
Posted by Andrew Wagner at February 16th, 2008 at 6:34 pm@ Steve Markman, and lest we not forget that almost all laptop manufacturers (Apple and Dell included) have ODM’s out of China and Taiwan manufacturing their laptops (Mostly out of the Shenzhen region and Taipei).
Posted by Andrew Wagner at February 16th, 2008 at 6:38 pmDid you guys see that new parody on Youtube?
Posted by Abe Olandres at May 5th, 2008 at 11:35 am